Die Grinder vs. Angle Grinder; Cutoff Wheels

[Elle]

The inner sleeves of some of my 91 Civic's control arm
bushings are seized to the bolts. Many posts on Usenet say
to use either a die grinder or angle grinder. Is the only
difference between the two that the die grinder can get into
much smaller places? Which in fact I probably need for this
job.

So far I have purchased (but not yet used) a "Buffalo Tools
Air Die Grinder" with the following specs:
20,000 RPM
3 CFM @ 90 PSI (I have not a super-duper air compressor but
when rated about this)
1/4" collet

Also, I want to purchase a cutoff wheel but am confused
about how what I'm seeing affixes to my new die grinder. I
see
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=22423-70-DW4419&lpage=none
but the wheel has a hole in the center, not a rod which I
could insert into the die grinder.

A few years ago I used a cheap-o electric drill to grind out
one of the suspension bolts/bushing sleeves. It was an
excruciating process because I doubt the drill had the RPM
or power to cut well, and I didn't have much of a grinding
stone (it was not a wheel). So I want something much more
serious. The guy at Checker's Auto Parts who sold me the die
grinder said it should be pretty effective, which is
consistent with the Usenet posts on this. It (with an angle
grinder) seems to be the tool of choice in this situation.

All input welcome. No big rush; renovating my 91 Civic's
suspension is a multi-month project. So far hurdles have
been hit (this is the latest), but I'm overcoming them, and
it's going well.

[*]

A "die grinder" is commonly a 20,000 - 30,000 - plus rpm tool while an
"angle grinder" usually operates somewhat under 10,000 rpm.

Die grinders have a tendency to explode disks that are not designed for
their rpm range.

Angle grinders are exceedingly slow - by comparison - in cut-off
situations.

You must purchase a quarter-inch-shank cut-off wheel arbor to use cut-off
wheels on your die grinder.

You must purchase the correct-sized center-hole wheels to use them on your
angle grinder.

I, for one, would be extremely interested in hearing a more explicit
definition of the term "....SHOULD be pretty effective....." as voiced by
the near-minimum-wage monkey behind the counter at Checkers.

Ask him,

"Exactly, how much experience do you have with....

.....Honda suspension bushings

.....die/angle grinders.....

Which one(s) do YOU own, personally?

Post by Elle
The inner sleeves of some of my 91 Civic's control arm
bushings are seized to the bolts. Many posts on Usenet say
to use either a die grinder or angle grinder. Is the only
difference between the two that the die grinder can get into
much smaller places? Which in fact I probably need for this
job.
So far I have purchased (but not yet used) a "Buffalo Tools
20,000 RPM
when rated about this)
1/4" collet
Also, I want to purchase a cutoff wheel but am confused
about how what I'm seeing affixes to my new die grinder. I
see

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=22423-70-DW441
9&lpage=none

Post by Elle
but the wheel has a hole in the center, not a rod which I
could insert into the die grinder.
A few years ago I used a cheap-o electric drill to grind out
one of the suspension bolts/bushing sleeves. It was an
excruciating process because I doubt the drill had the RPM
or power to cut well, and I didn't have much of a grinding
stone (it was not a wheel). So I want something much more
serious. The guy at Checker's Auto Parts who sold me the die
grinder said it should be pretty effective, which is
consistent with the Usenet posts on this. It (with an angle
grinder) seems to be the tool of choice in this situation.
All input welcome. No big rush; renovating my 91 Civic's
suspension is a multi-month project. So far hurdles have
been hit (this is the latest), but I'm overcoming them, and
it's going well.

[Elle]

I don't think the Checkers guy was BS-ing me or trying to
push me around. He gently also said things like, 'just make
sure to have the bushing sleeve in a vice before using the
die grinder on it.' (I had an old sleeve in my hand to show
him what I was up against. Then I explained that it was the
ones already quite secure on my car that I was planning on
cutting.) Plus, as I mentioned, when I first asked him what
he thought might work, he suggested exactly what people on
the Usenet archives said to use.

PB Blaster, heat, hacksaws, drills are pretty futile. Angle
or die grinder was the best approach. Plus, today I saw that
other makes (besides Honda, that is) often have this problem
with the suspension bushings.

At Lowes a little while ago, based on your guidance, I found
adapters for the cut-off wheels; a person bolts the wheel to
the adapter, and the adapter has a shank to then fit onto
the die grinder. Then three or so brands of cut-off wheels
(with the holes in the center, for metals, rated a little
over 20,000 RPM) were available as choices.

Thank you for your help. It was dead-on what I needed to
know. I'll update the group about how this goes.

Post by *
A "die grinder" is commonly a 20,000 - 30,000 - plus rpm
tool while an
"angle grinder" usually operates somewhat under 10,000
rpm.
Die grinders have a tendency to explode disks that are not
designed for
their rpm range.
Angle grinders are exceedingly slow - by comparison - in
cut-off
situations.
You must purchase a quarter-inch-shank cut-off wheel arbor
to use cut-off
wheels on your die grinder.
You must purchase the correct-sized center-hole wheels to
use them on your
angle grinder.
I, for one, would be extremely interested in hearing a
more explicit
definition of the term "....SHOULD be pretty
effective....." as voiced by
the near-minimum-wage monkey behind the counter at
Checkers.
Ask him,
"Exactly, how much experience do you have with....
.....Honda suspension bushings
.....die/angle grinders.....
Which one(s) do YOU own, personally?

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

Post by Elle
The inner sleeves of some of my 91 Civic's control arm
bushings are seized to the bolts. Many posts on Usenet say
to use either a die grinder or angle grinder. Is the only
difference between the two that the die grinder can get into
much smaller places? Which in fact I probably need for this
job.
So far I have purchased (but not yet used) a "Buffalo Tools
20,000 RPM
when rated about this)
1/4" collet
Also, I want to purchase a cutoff wheel but am confused
about how what I'm seeing affixes to my new die grinder. I
see

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=22423-70-DW4419&lpage=none

Post by Elle
but the wheel has a hole in the center, not a rod which I
could insert into the die grinder.

cut-off wheels are supposed to be used in cut-off tools that have
a guard. Yes you can use them in a die grinder if you get a chuck
for them, but you must be extemely careful. (wearing safety glasses
is just the beginning) because the wheel is completely unguarded.
If your going to do that, my suggestion would be to take the guard off
a cut off tool temporairly instead of messing with a cut off wheel in
a die grinder.

Angle grinders (at least all the new ones) have guards and so are
a lot safer than screwing with a grinding stone in a die grinder. The
only time I use die grinders is in situations where I'm working on a
hole or some such. And I have broken quite a lot of grinding stones
in die grinders, it is very exciting when the stone breaks and the end
of it goes flying off in a random direction and bouncing against things.
I don't care for such excitement.

If you don't care to save the parts a cut off wheel will work a lot faster
than a grinder, it will cut through even hardened steel like cutting through
butter. There's not a Master Lock in existence that can stand up to one.

While grinding stones in a die grinder can work in some tight situations
an angle grinder cannot reach into, an angle grinder grinds a lot faster
than
a die grinder because you can put some pressure on the wheel. Grinding
stones must have some pressure forcing them against the work or they will
not do anything. With a grinding stone in a die grinder you have to side
load the entire tool and it's hard to control it, since the stone wants to
grab
the work and fling the tool sideways. With an angle grinder the tool will
still be flung sideways but because the stone is turning slower it's easier
to control it and keep the stone on the work, instead of it crashing into
nearby parts that you don't want to have grind marks all over.

I own all three of the tools and several variants of each of them.

One last warning about using unguarded grinding or cut off tools. Do not
under any circumstances put any part of your body in the same plane the
wheel
is operating in. Try to keep as close to the axis of the wheel as possible.
Do as little work as possible with one. Never use just one hand to
hold the tool. It's better to remove an assembly to get access to it if
possible with a guarded tool than try to rush it.

Ted

[Elle]

Ted, thank you very much for elaborating with your
experience, especially on the safety points like no-guard
means a face mask is needed. I haven't been under the car
yet with my air die grinder, but from my recollection I'm
pretty sure I couldn't do this bushing (and likely bolt)
cut-out job with a guard in place. I wouldn't be able to
see, because it's such a tight space. I have about a
half-inch gap into which to insert the die grinder, with a
few more inches on the other sides, and that's it.

I do indeed have a bona fide cut-off wheel that fits the die
grinder now.

Yesterday I tried out the die grinder on a lesser job
(grinding stone applied to a tool that needed a very minor
modification). I put the lesser job in a big box and set the
vice, with tool-to-be-ground, in it. Worked well enough. I
need to buy some spindle oil for the die grinder, though. Or
maybe an in-line oiler.

I think I'm going to go at the bushing underneath the car
today, since I have an old, duplicate bushing sleeve and
bolt assembly to put in place until the new set arrives. I
will rig up more safety shielding per your suggestions, in
anticipation of, say, the wheel breaking. Certainly the
question always to be asked is: Is there a safer way to do
this? (An old friend who oversees men performing a lot of
jury-rigged, by necessity, jobs reminded me of this maxim
last year. He asks his men this all the time.)

Thanks again.

Post by Ted Mittelstaedt
cut-off wheels are supposed to be used in cut-off tools
that have
a guard. Yes you can use them in a die grinder if you get
a chuck
for them, but you must be extemely careful. (wearing
safety glasses
is just the beginning) because the wheel is completely
unguarded.
If your going to do that, my suggestion would be to take
the guard off
a cut off tool temporairly instead of messing with a cut
off wheel in
a die grinder.
Angle grinders (at least all the new ones) have guards and
so are
a lot safer than screwing with a grinding stone in a die
grinder. The
only time I use die grinders is in situations where I'm
working on a
hole or some such. And I have broken quite a lot of
grinding stones
in die grinders, it is very exciting when the stone breaks
and the end
of it goes flying off in a random direction and bouncing
against things.
I don't care for such excitement.
If you don't care to save the parts a cut off wheel will
work a lot faster
than a grinder, it will cut through even hardened steel
like cutting through
butter. There's not a Master Lock in existence that can
stand up to one.
While grinding stones in a die grinder can work in some
tight situations
an angle grinder cannot reach into, an angle grinder
grinds a lot faster
than
a die grinder because you can put some pressure on the
wheel. Grinding
stones must have some pressure forcing them against the
work or they will
not do anything. With a grinding stone in a die grinder
you have to side
load the entire tool and it's hard to control it, since
the stone wants to
grab
the work and fling the tool sideways. With an angle
grinder the tool will
still be flung sideways but because the stone is turning
slower it's easier
to control it and keep the stone on the work, instead of
it crashing into
nearby parts that you don't want to have grind marks all
over.
I own all three of the tools and several variants of each
of them.
One last warning about using unguarded grinding or cut off
tools. Do not
under any circumstances put any part of your body in the
same plane the
wheel
is operating in. Try to keep as close to the axis of the
wheel as possible.
Do as little work as possible with one. Never use just
one hand to
hold the tool. It's better to remove an assembly to get
access to it if
possible with a guarded tool than try to rush it.
Ted

[Elle]

The air die grinder, with cutoff wheel, worked great. I cut
all the way through the bushing sleeve and about one-third
to one-half through the bolt. I tapped on both ends and on
the exposed bolt in the sleeve. I applied a wrench and
advance the bolt fully and then unscrewed it again. Squeezed
in a little PB Blaster here and there (dunno if that
helped). I heard some popping noises and the bolt ultimately
came free of the sleeve. Took maybe an hour altogether to
free it.

I probably only ran the grinder for about two minutes total.
I did so in a few steps, to check my progress and keep
reviewing the safety of the situation. The air die grinder
was indeed very fast.

More details appear in my post of a little while ago at
rec.autos.makers.honda.

Thanks again "*" and Ted. I am really pleased that I got
this free. I now may go after the rear suspension sooner
rather than later.