Discussion:
5 yr warranty on ignition control modules
(too old to reply)
William R. Watt
2004-02-06 13:44:17 UTC
Permalink
Just found out there is a 5 year 50,000 mile warranty on the ignition
control module. Suggest car owners keep their paperpwork.

I had tried a module our of a used distributor from a wreck and also
seeing if a module could be repaired, with helpful info from this
newsgroup, before giving up and buying a new module. The new one had a
warranty so I dug out the work order from 5 years ago when the module was
last replaced and found the warranty stapled to it. It had 2 weeks left on
the warranty so I was able to replace the failed one at no cost and return
the new one I had purchased.

--
Anthony Diodati
2004-02-06 14:51:52 UTC
Permalink
Good deal
Tony D.
Post by William R. Watt
Just found out there is a 5 year 50,000 mile warranty on the ignition
control module. Suggest car owners keep their paperpwork.
I had tried a module our of a used distributor from a wreck and also
seeing if a module could be repaired, with helpful info from this
newsgroup, before giving up and buying a new module. The new one had a
warranty so I dug out the work order from 5 years ago when the module was
last replaced and found the warranty stapled to it. It had 2 weeks left on
the warranty so I was able to replace the failed one at no cost and return
the new one I had purchased.
--
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Post by William R. Watt
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
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Post by William R. Watt
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GarySport
2004-02-07 07:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
Just found out there is a 5 year 50,000 mile warranty on the ignition
control module. Suggest car owners keep their paperpwork.
What company is it? I had one replaced a few months ago, but my mechanic
didn't give me any warranty papers.. In fact, I've never had a mechanic give me
a warranty paper on any product they've installed. I do have the mechanic's
itemized bill which shows when a new one was installed.
Thanks.

GS
William R. Watt
2004-02-07 13:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by GarySport
Post by William R. Watt
Just found out there is a 5 year 50,000 mile warranty on the ignition
control module. Suggest car owners keep their paperpwork.
What company is it? I had one replaced a few months ago, but my mechanic
didn't give me any warranty papers.. In fact, I've never had a mechanic give me
a warranty paper on any product they've installed. I do have the mechanic's
itemized bill which shows when a new one was installed.
Thanks.
Its a Mitsubishi J207 module off a 1989 Ford Festiva distributed in the
USA and Canada by Standard Motor Products, www.smpcorp.com. Their Canadian
subsidiary is Blue Steak Electronics, www.bsecorp.com. The module was
installed in Feb 1999 so the warranty has been around for at least that
long. The warranty is on a slip of paper inside the Standard box that the
module comes in. When the module was replaced in 1999 I didn't like the
$248 price quoted by the mechanic at the neighbourhood garage so I called
around and got one for $175. Maybe it was because I bought the module
myself and took it in to the neighbourhood garage that I got the box with
the warranty in it. The mechanic installed the module without any
electrical grease which could have shortened its life. When I took the
failed module in for exchange there was only 2 weeks left on the warranty. :)

I wrote up an account of replacing the module for the automotive newsgroup
here on the FreeNet. It repeats a lot of what was posted here in response
to my questions but I'll append it here in case it might be of help to
a few people. I also sent a copy to www.fordfestiva.com and put a copy on
my website.

---------------------------------------------------------------

This is the story of replacing the electronic ignition control
module in my old car and what I learned from the exercise. I hope
it helps other car owners.


In 1999 the ignition control module on my 1989 Ford Festiva was replaced.
In late 2004 the car was again not running properly (see below). Using a
volt meter, hand held tachometer, and hand held vacuum guage I was able to
trace the problem to the distributor. I suspected a faulty electronic
ignition control module inside the distributor but had no way of testing
it. None of the auto repair shops I called could test the module. They
could only do a complete electronic engine analysis costing $65 to $100
(Canadian dollars). A new auto parts store that opened up in our
neighbourhood had a device to test ignition control modules. They would
test customers' modules free of charge. My module failed the test. In an
attempt to save money I bought a distributor off a wreck but that module
also failed the test. I spent some time investigating if the module could
be repaired but could not find an electronics repair shop (more below). I
bought a new module. The price range I got on new modules by telephoning
auto parts stores ranged from $147 to $291. The lowest cost was at a parts
store on the other side of the city. Without the car I could not get
there. However, the new auto parts store would match any competitor's
price so I was able to buy a new module there for $147. When I went to
install the new module I noticed it had a 5 year, 50,000 mile warranty. I
got the work order for the old module out of my file and found stapled to
it the same warranty. There was still two weeks left on the warranty.
There was no milage recorded on the work order but I keep a computer
spreadsheet summary of all work done on the car. The milage was recorded
there. I exchanged the old module for a new one under warranty and got a
refund for the new module I had purchased. The old modlue had to be
exhanged at another parts store where I had originally bought it. (I rode
my bicycle 4 miles through the snow and 4 miles back back to make the
exchange.) That parts store had an older module tester. Perhaps all parts
stores have them. It was used to confirm the old module was faulty before
making the exchange. I installed the new module using a special
di-electric heat transfer grease to protect it (see below). The car idled
worse than before. I could not figure out what was wrong. I slowly drove
the car to the nearest garage where the mechanic spent half an hour making
some adjustments and taking it for a test drive. This entire episode cost
me $86.50 for the used distributor, $1.15 for the electrical grease, and
$40.25 for the mechanic's labour. The auto wrecker would not give me a
refund on the used distributor because it had electronics in it. There was
no problem getting a refund on the new module I bought because it was
still sealed in its plastic bag.


The ignition control module for the 1989 Festiva (both carbureted
and fuel injected engines) is manufactured by Mitsibushi in Japan.
It has the part number J207 in raised letters on the plastic body.
The module is distributed in the USA by Standard Motor Products
(www.smpcorp.com) as part number LX627, and in Canada by a
subsidiary called Blue Streak Electronics (www.bsecorp.com) in the
Standard package.


Both my module and the one off the wreck failed the test
(www.DIStester.com) in exactly the same way. The car would start
but instead of idling at 750 rpm it idled at 1200. The needle on
the handheld vacuum guage was steady at 21 but droped every 8-10
seconds to 18 which is supposed to mean an ignition problem. The
printout from the DIS tester was ....

DIS TEST RESULT (Version 011802)
CABLE#: U7 FAIL
Quiescent current: pass
Current_Limit: pass
Freq at Crank_rpm: pass
Freq at Low_rpm: FAIL
Freq at Idle_rpm: FAIL
Freq at High_rpm: FAIL
Dwell at Crank_rpm: pass
Dwell at Low_rpm: pass
Dwell at Idle_rpm: pass
Dwell at High_rpm: pass
Peak Voltage #1: FAIL
Current at Coil #1: pass


On advice posted at rec.autos.tech I applied a di-electric heat
transfer grease to the module when it was installed to protect it
from voltage spikes and to draw away heat if it got hot. Some that
were recommened were Radio Shack Transistor Heatsink Grease, Tech
Spray Heat Sink Compound, GC Electronics Heatsink Grease, and
Wakefield 120 Series Silicone Oil-based Thermal Joint Compound.
The only one I could find locally was at Radio Shack in the $10.00
size. Instead I used a 4 gm tube of MG Chemicals Silicone Heat
Transfer Compound (www.mgchemicals.com/products/860.html) from a
local electronics hobby shop. Before using it I sent email to the
technical contact at Blue Streak asking him to check the
specifications on the MG webpage. He replied giving his approval
but noted that Blue Streak recommends its own product. The 4 gm
tube was two times as much as needed for the module. I spread the
grease on the base plate in the distrubutor before installing the
new module.


Before buying a new module I investigated getting the old one
repaired. I think it can be reparied but could not locate anyone
in my area who could repair electronic circuits. Some people in the
rec.autos.tech newsgroup had repaired older control
modules. Some had substituted modules off cars other than their
own. The early ones all did the same thing. In most cases all that
was required was to replace a $2 capacitor or a $3 transistor on
the coil primary circuit. People on the www.electroncis.repair
newsgroup thought it would not be worth the effort. I pried open
the module which was replaced in 1999. It has a hard plastic body
glued around the edge to a metal base. There are 5 electrical
connectors sticking out of the plastic body. The two in the middle
go into the pickup on the distributor shaft. The shaft has 4
points (one for each spark plug) which pass two ends of an iron
magnet and induce a voltage to time the spark plug. The two
electrical connectors on the left of the plastic body go to the
primary circuit terminals on the ignition coil. There is a
constant voltage in this circuit except when a spark plug is
supposed to fire. At that instant the voltage drops inducing a
high voltage in the secondary circuit of the ignition coil which
is routed to one of the spark plugs by the rotor and cap on the
distributor. The electrical connector on the right side of the
plastic body goes to the car computer. When the engine warms up
the computer uses the oxygen sensor to decide how much to advance
the tming of the spark plugs and sends signals to the ignition
module. When the computer is not controlling the spark timing it
is controlled by the points on the rotating distributor shaft, by
the vacuum advance digaphragm mounted on the side of the
distributor, and by the centrigufal weights on the distributor
shaft. This is a hybrid system half way between the older purely
mechanical system and the later purely electronic system. Inside
the ignition control module is a small ceramic wafer circuit
board. I could identify resistors and transistors and some other
devices, the purpose or function of which I do not know. The
ceramic wafer was glued securely to the metal base. I could not
budge it. However off to the left of the ceramic wafer are two
devices mounted on a smaller wafer which lifted easily off the
metal base. I suspect these are a diode and transistor connected
the primary coil circuit. I suspect these would be ones which
would have to be replaced. For that reason I think the modules can
be repaired. I am saving my old modules in case Mitsibishi stops
making them. One day the Festiva will be an antique and people
will want to repair the modules. When I pried open the module I
broke all five wires connecting the circuit board to the
electrical connectors on the plastic body. They would have to be
resoldered. The inside of the module is almost completely filled
with a clear silicone gel which has to be cleaned off. Its called
"potting" gel by electronics technicians. It protects the devices
from electrical fields around the distributor. When working on
the module a person should touch something metal to discharge any
static electricity. A person cannot feel the very small high
voltage charges which can damage electronc devices.


--
Indiån §ummer
2004-02-08 13:53:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Watt
Quiescent current: pass
Current_Limit: pass
Freq at Crank_rpm: pass
Freq at Low_rpm: FAIL
Freq at Idle_rpm: FAIL
Freq at High_rpm: FAIL
Dwell at Crank_rpm: pass
Dwell at Low_rpm: pass
Dwell at Idle_rpm: pass
Dwell at High_rpm: pass
Peak Voltage #1: FAIL
Current at Coil #1: pass
I read a few of your back posts and realized that you should be
able to repair your module if the IC is still intact. Here's how. Use
the old module IC's output and hook it to the same pin on the
new module. If all is fine, replace the part after it. Before attempting
this make sure you repair the worse than-before-idle issue.

Based on the readings above my concern is that the IC, clamping
zener or Power transistor could be bad. You pass on the dwells
but not on frequencies. To find out you might want to monitor the
IC frequency output that drives the power transistor. A logic analyzer
could do the trick but a new power transistor is cheaper. Replace it,
the zener diode and bring it back to the testing center. There's less risk
of damaging it than trying it on a car.

I constructed a test jig for this purpose from scrap parts taken
from old NEC modules. This could tell me if the IC is bad, for
instance. But as it appears your IC is controlling current fine -
it should be fine.


---
I dreamed a thousand paths but I woke and walk my old ones.
Indiån §ummer
2004-02-08 14:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Indiån §ummer
I read a few of your back posts
Couple things to add.
Post by Indiån §ummer
The car idled worse than before.
This could be a warning sign that sparks didn't jump gap on the plug.
And you know where the sparks goes - right back into the
clamping zener. If the zener fails, it can cripple the power transistor
or worse the IC. (The IC also contains a clamping zener to
protect it but, it can fry.) You need to identify the bad plug or
plug wire and get rid of it.

Another note; if you fail at high rpm, it's double the bad news.
Imagine sparks zapping the zener hundreds of times more that
if it were at low rpm. This is more damaging in my perspective.
Post by Indiån §ummer
The car would start but instead of
idling at 750 rpm it idled at 1200.
If the ECM (car computer) raises the rpm, if that's what you're
saying, this only makes it possible for the driver gets home safely
at the cost of your module.
Post by Indiån §ummer
When the engine warms up
the computer uses the oxygen sensor to decide how much to advance
the timing of the spark plugs and sends signals to the ignition
module. When the computer is not controlling the spark timing it
is controlled by the points on the rotating distributor shaft, by
the vacuum advance diaphragm mounted on the side of the
distributor, and by the centrifugal weights on the distributor
shaft. This is a hybrid system half way between the older purely
mechanical system and the later purely electronic system.
You haven't mention any additional signal generations and feed back
wires from the module which inputs to the ECM/ECU, if we're talking
about the same type, which I have in mind the Toyota VAST system.
Post by Indiån §ummer
I suspect these are a diode and transistor connected
the primary coil circuit. I suspect these would be ones which
would have to be replaced.
The diodes are usually zeners. Find one that can handle 10KV
or more. The power transistors are sometimes darlington with
built in zeners. Try salvaging them from the auto recycle yards.
Certain ignition systems don't have clamping zeners but most do.
One last caution, remember to bring a microscope.

Let us know how you car is doing.

---
I dreamed a thousand paths but I woke and walk my old ones.
Daniel Rudy
2004-02-09 06:19:09 UTC
Permalink
And somewhere around the time of 02/08/2004 06:03, the world stopped and
Post by Indiån §ummer
Post by Indiån §ummer
I read a few of your back posts
Couple things to add.
Post by Indiån §ummer
The car idled worse than before.
This could be a warning sign that sparks didn't jump gap on the plug.
And you know where the sparks goes - right back into the
clamping zener. If the zener fails, it can cripple the power transistor
or worse the IC. (The IC also contains a clamping zener to
protect it but, it can fry.) You need to identify the bad plug or
plug wire and get rid of it.
Another note; if you fail at high rpm, it's double the bad news.
Imagine sparks zapping the zener hundreds of times more that
if it were at low rpm. This is more damaging in my perspective.
Not if the voltage/current is within the zerner's tolerances.
Post by Indiån §ummer
Post by Indiån §ummer
The car would start but instead of
idling at 750 rpm it idled at 1200.
If the ECM (car computer) raises the rpm, if that's what you're
saying, this only makes it possible for the driver gets home safely
at the cost of your module.
Post by Indiån §ummer
When the engine warms up
the computer uses the oxygen sensor to decide how much to advance
the timing of the spark plugs and sends signals to the ignition
module. When the computer is not controlling the spark timing it
is controlled by the points on the rotating distributor shaft, by
the vacuum advance diaphragm mounted on the side of the
distributor, and by the centrifugal weights on the distributor
shaft. This is a hybrid system half way between the older purely
mechanical system and the later purely electronic system.
You haven't mention any additional signal generations and feed back
wires from the module which inputs to the ECM/ECU, if we're talking
about the same type, which I have in mind the Toyota VAST system.
Sounds like the ECC-IV systems that Ford used. My Ranger uses it and it
has 5 wires. Two to the coil, two to the distributer, one to the computer.
Post by Indiån §ummer
Post by Indiån §ummer
I suspect these are a diode and transistor connected
the primary coil circuit. I suspect these would be ones which
would have to be replaced.
The diodes are usually zeners. Find one that can handle 10KV
or more. The power transistors are sometimes darlington with
built in zeners. Try salvaging them from the auto recycle yards.
Certain ignition systems don't have clamping zeners but most do.
One last caution, remember to bring a microscope.
Forget salvaging parts because you never know what condition the parts
are in and if they are reliable. Buy new ones. http://www.mouser.com
http://www.digikey.com http://www.mcmelectronics.com and a bunch of others.
Post by Indiån §ummer
Let us know how you car is doing.
---
I dreamed a thousand paths but I woke and walk my old ones.
--
Daniel Rudy

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